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Saturday, 16 July 2016

Be careful what you wish for

Since we woke to the news of Nice, there have been consistent reports of demands in France for 'firm leadership'. And I've long been of the opinion that one simply can't argue against Orban's Fidesz party and its aims of 'family, work, health, order'. Who can campaign on a platform of 'isolation. joblessness, illness, chaos'? Marine le Pen can hope for another three major Islamist atrocities before the French elections next year, each one handing her another 5% of the nation's votes. And she promises to be very strong indeed against France's estimated 10% Moslem residents (though they don't know - the French don't count these things)

As much as I can read Orban's words here in comfort and freedom, I really wouldn't want him leading my country. For a start, bloggers who offer the slightest criticism face unjust discrimination; he is closing off the courts and the media to opposition access and free comment and gradually turning Hungary into a totalitarian State, albeit one without Moslems, mosques, terrorism and social parasitism. 

And as much as we may support the military faction in Turkey trying to halt the country's drift towards an Islamic Republic, to preserve it as a secular and liberal EU candidate nation, it seems the Turkish people by and large want to become an Islamist republic. How this squares with leggy Natashas on the beaches in tiny bikinis, cocktail bars and women's equality I don't know - but I'll support a democratic vote over a general's tanks any day, anywhere. 

You simply can't support the mechanisms of State repression against Moslems in France or in Britain without becoming subject to the same measures yourself. And knowing well the strongly-held and very divergent opinions held by readers of this blog, I'll bet that 85% of you (and me) would end up in an internment camp not long after they locked all the Islamists up. 

'Be careful what you wish for' has never been more true. 


Anonymous said...

Yes, the Soviets were right to ban organised religion...

The only thing they got wrong, was that they forgot to ban their own Bolshevik religion at the same time. The 'establishment' always oversteps its brief.

It is innate human behaviour for different tribes to dance around the fire in different directions, and this is something that should not be organised at state level.

The classical liberals are right, socially and economically, life should be ordered at the most local level possible, whilst at state level, only the protection of property is relevant... judiciary, external military, internal police force.

But we should start from the premise that at local level, everything is legal, and then through the process of historical precedent and binding direct democracy, decide what should be proscribed.

None of which should be difficult to institute...

If the Swiss can do it, so can the rest of us.

Incidentally, Mrs. May has already trodden on the above assumption when she banned all, as yet undeveloped 'designer drugs', she has made something that doesn't exist, illegal.


Sebastian Weetabix said...

Mr Orban thinks we are at war. He is right.

Tony Harrison said...

Yes, agree entirely - it's a poser. OTOH I find myself encouraging the progress of the FN, a Party that will indeed find advantage in the present (and probably continuing) Islamic excesses; I know people in France (where I spend some time) who vote FN and they're perfectly ok. On the other, I could not vote for a fundamentally Socialist, authoritarian, big-state Party since its values are diametrically opposed to my own...
But I do not see any contradictions in, for instance, a socially liberal/libertarian small-state regime in England to restore our traditional freedoms and guard against encroachment by the State, which at the same time guards our borders and imposes very strict controls on the sort of people we let in... It just requires the right mindset and political will, based on a patriotic desire to maximise & defend the interests of England and its indigenous values/people.
Alas, it's that patriotic desire which our political class lacks, along with conviction, courage and competence.

Span Ows said...

"You simply can't support the mechanisms of State repression against Moslems in France or in Britain without becoming subject to the same measures yourself."

Exactly right, Tony Blair et al started the rot "for our own safety" with the hate crime (thought crime!) and terrorism legislation that only seems to be used against decent folk.

Barnacle Bill said...

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

Unfortunately human nature being as it is, I fear that anyone who can lead a movement that delivers what I would like to see happen in this country will eventually turn upon me. So I full agree with you Radders about being careful about what one wishes for.

As an aside - I know deep down inside myself that the quote above would apply equally to me if I were to put myself forward as that desired leader. Hence my reluctance to put my head above the sandbags.

Mr Ecks said...

There are only two choices--the Islamist win or we do.

We can do so without becoming scum. There isn't only one way to win--ie by creating something nearly as bad as what we are fighting,

We won a far worse mess in WW2 without becoming socialist scum ourselves while fighting socialist scum ( for that is what the Nazis were).

Our problem is not really the RoP. We could send a shower of religious nutters packing easily enough.

Our problem and our fault is that we have allowed the RoP's sponsors --the scum of the left-to gain power. In politics/media/schools &Uni's/local govt.

Roust that shower and the RoP will have had their chips quick enough

Poisonedchalice said...

Talking of Hungary - I wonder where this will end up?

Coney Island

Anonymous said...

@Mr. Ecks...

Who won?

In my view, we are still trying to beat the bastards...

They just keep on coming... like that portrayal of George Foreman by Cassius Clay.


John M said...

I undertsand that Marine Le Pen's Front Nationale party is polling over 30% in France now. If something doesn't change in France soon, all these extremists are going to achieve is an ultra right wing Government that may actually start persecuting Muslims...

Anonymous said...

And pray, what does a right-wing government look like in a first-world country? (Given that most rational folk accept that the National SOcialist German Workers Party was actually of the left - something about 'Socialist' and 'Workers' giving it away?

Probably one where terrorist sects are stamped on, the economy turns upwards, civil liberties grow ...

Anonymous said...


France, is, a difficult one.

The self styled 'driver of the EU' and how the good years are long past, economically speaking France is a basket case with bureaucracy and working practises, ie 35 hr/week idiocies: it just cannot afford.

For France, the EU was supposed [in the eyes of the French - and that Communist tosser Spinelli] to bring about peace, cooperation. Next, onwards to federalism and a joined Europe and most importantly to tie Germany to French the 'top boys'.
What they [the Kermits] didn't realize was that, as always, the Germans were finessing the Frogs - and as the French economy dives and some believe, that consequently, the country subsides into chaos, being part of Le grand projet is not such a good idea - enter, Le Pen.

Mme. Marine Le Pen, is not "ultra right wing" she espouses indeed epitomizes very pro big state solutions and if it's not an oxymoron Marine Le Pen is also an staunch patriot. Plus, though we'd argue long about how much of a solution is big state politics [aren't] as to the second bit, nothing wrong with that imho.

Le Pen, she curries favour with the remnants of the Gaullists, who are mainly right wing and the French establishment plays middle for diddle and the big powerful French unions love soft bastards like Hollande - or did.

Sometimes, it is a difficult job to know as a unified country just how France survives.

Currently, as the Islamofascists wreak havoc on the streets of Paris and Nice and God knows where next? The bits that make up the French whole, look increasingly disparate not to say irreconcilable.

Indeed, it's hard not to conclude that and to a great extent, that, the idea always put about by a line of French president's extolling France as still an international heavyweight and "running" the EU - that lie has been total bollocks for over thirty years, but the egregious lie is swallowed hook and sinker by the French people.
Thus, not only has internal and externally, the EU pressure and German competition helped stuff French industry. Disaster beckons, with, a melt down in its internal politics, the demographic transition of France [nigh on as great.... bad as the UK] have been ignored, totally ignored.
France, is rudderless and holed below the waterline, its national identity compromised by EU forces and mass immigration.
However, we should not look on with "I told you so!".....schadenfreude - it's coming here too. Internally, I grieve for both nations, because to reset the wrong doing - I am not sure it can be even half way achieved.

Finally, Putin or opposed to Islam/submission and Isis?

Absolutely, the right word to me, the first two would be, is the only choice.


PS. R, will there be prisons big enough to hold us all?

Anonymous said...

Now and again I ask myself this question: Would the world be a better place if Islam had never existed?


Anonymous said...

"Would the world be a better place if Islam had never existed?"

Yes, and the same applies to most organised religions. The Americans did right to ban the teaching of religion in schools.

I think Blair's worst policy was his support of "faith".

Don Cox

Anonymous said...

The trouble is that in the absence of religion, for all too many, the State becomes a religion - and a very bloodthirsty religion at that.

Tom Oliva said...

Does anybody else think that the Turkish military just exhibited some quite uncharacteristic ineptness?

Anonymous said...

Does anybody else think that the Turkish military just exhibited some quite uncharacteristic ineptness?

16 July 2016 at 19:48 /quote.

The big mistake, if it t'were done, then best to make sure most of the boys are onside.

Maybe and it was possible, in earlier years - decades ago but the new Sultan has the multitude, allies as far off as Turkmenistan and many former Russian republics - a fully organized, funded by the Gulf and cashing in on hawking Syrian Oil exports. It is, a quasi army the fundamentalist zealots on his 'the sultan's' side and running the police, the people smugglers and interchanging with Isis in Syria.
The army, to counter that, the Turkish army needed to be fully mobilized, by a long chalk, this was half baked military adventure and ending in lots of pain.

The beeb spent the morning and arguing, that, this latest failed coup it enhances the Sultan's position, I would argue to the contrary, the new Ottoman Empire is not yet built and Erdogan is vulnerable and that all of Turkey and the Turks know it.

Anonymous said...

It must have been twenty five years ago now, but I had a particular friend of a somewhat intermittent Islamic persuasion.

One evening during the course of a few pints, he said to me, I expect all Moslems to be deported from Europe.

I naturally, vehemently disagreed. But it suggests to me, that he knew the Islamic plan all those years ago, and one of the possible scenarios that might result.

Anonymous said...

I used to live in an area of my home town that was what could be described as, a Jewish quarter.

Through business and in in the local 'bazaar' [battle cruiser], I, we used to get on well.
One gloriously summery Sabbathical afternoon, we spoiled the mood, because we commenced talking about progressives, Bliar and mass immigration, in particular relating to, the creed of death and one kid piped up,
"you're going to have to do to them, what you tried to do to us...."

It was. to say the least a very awkward moment and then we all nodded,

"ah......... relocation is it, my boy?"

I called it, still do, Christian-Judaeo ESP moment.

Anonymous said...

I'd wish for a time machine, wouldn't need to be too accurate, say landing any time between 1955 and 1965. Before any one says it, yes I know it wasn't perfect then and all those marvellous technological advances would be forgone but how many born in the 40's would disagree I wonder.

anon 2 said...

@ Anonymous 11:16 - " many born in the 40's would disagree I wonder." Not me; you're right.

Anonymous said...

This could be listed as a wish or perhaps more properly......
Those who the gods would destroy they first make mad.......

Any native French speakers out there who could maybe explain if this is some kind of idiom that doesn't translate easily or what.

Gordon the Fence Post Tortoise said...


Erdogan has a track record of thuggery - that the armed forces didn't target him and his crew directly it would seem, shows a quite remarkable (near miraculous)lack of nous. The rapidity of arresting 2000+ judges etc... we will just have to sit and watch.

Remember - this is the man who's quoted as saying "democracy is like a bus, useful to get where you want to go" (or close). We can do little but wait and see - but it does look like a preemptive strike and if it was - and he's got a plan... there will be a shedload more trouble there,

DeeDee99 said...

@Tom Oliva

Yes, they failed at the most basic level for carrying out a coup: make sure you have enough senior people onside to ensure you win.

Weekend Yachtsman said...

I have long regarded the Turkish military as the guarantors of Ataturk's legacy.

That they failed this time tells us that Turkey is on its way to becoming an Islamist state.

Truly the barbarians are at the gates as well as inside them. I wonder if Europe has the stomach for the fight that's coming?