I have also long deprecated the degradation of the probity of our electoral system to a state that Michael Pinto-Duschinsky described to a select committee as 'third world'. Three million were on the roll who should not have been, and three million missing who should have been. Our Electoral Quotient - the number of voters per MP - was beyond all first world standards. We can't even achieve the second-rate standard of + / - 5% let alone the + / - 3% achieved by advanced democracies such as New Zealand. Postal votes, Blair's corruption of democratic integrity, remain a joke mired in fraud and personation. The dilettante fool Cameron failed to correct the EQ issue when he had a chance - sold out no doubt to Clegg's self interest. Liberals will always put party before country.
However, all credit to Theresa May in acting now, with a wafer thin margin in Parliament, to correct our constituency boundaries. And all credit for the electoral reform that has introduced IVR - individual voter registration. The hurdle that now remains is electoral fraud and personation.
Electoral fraud is not confined to the Labour Party. Remember Bob Spink. But it is stories like that below that one meets most frequently; they are not myth, even though they may not be as widespread as supposed.
So, albeit reluctantly, I now support the requirement for secure photo ID at our polling stations before voting papers are given. This system is already in place in Northern Ireland, where free photo ID cards are made available to those without other secure ID. It is an erosion of part of our national congruence, part of the trust that used to prevail when the vast majority in these isles gave great respect to the notion of 'fairness'. That has now passed. Fairness can only now be assured by ID.
30 comments:
I hate ID cards, thoroughly un-English and illiberal. Secure the voting sytem against electoral fraud by other means - start by deporting a great many of those from Third World places where such corruption is routine.
Constituency boundary rationalisation is a good thing (if Labour hates the idea, it must be a really, really good thing). But I doubt it will help Mrs May come the next GE. I foresee a ghastly unedifying close call with no-one the winner: very many of us will be too disgusted by this government's incompetence & pusillanimity over the Brexit negotiations to consider voting Tory, many will abstain, quite a few will vote UKIP despite that party's implosion, the usual suspects will vote LibDem or Green, and too many will vote Labour, like particularly dim mules, in the face of that party's political vileness and economic illiteracy.
Best thing might be to retreat to the sun a long way off, lay in stocks of gin, and go fishing. Let me know how things are in a decade or two...
I simply cannot accept the idea of having an ID card. I was against it then, and I am against it now. It just smacks too much of the "papieren bitte"
We all have IDs though, in one form or another, be it Passports, Driving Licences (which stipulate your current address), bank cards, credit cards and Work passes.
Reluctantly I accept your valid point that "part of the trust that used to prevail when the vast majority in these isles gave great respect to the notion of 'fairness'. That has now passed. Fairness can only now be assured by ID.
Show your driving license when going to vote, failing that a passport. Even a local authority council tax bill for the current year is sufficient. Postal voting has to cease completely. I remember in the Armed Forces we were allowed to use Proxy voting, I see no reason why the same cannot be done in lieu of postal voting, which is nothing but a giant fraud - perpetrated by the biggest fraud of all - Bliar.
It has always amazed me that no ID check has ever been made when I go to the polling station to vote and there appears to be no system in place to check for multiple voting, particularly now that Mr. Clegg is calling for young people to have double votes.
But the largest voting fraud has to be that achieved through postal voting, paricularly for those roads where the all the mail for the road is delivered to a single address in the road.
That the government appears to not be taking any measures against voting fraud is incomprehensible, let alone tackling the EQ issue.
Can't see PHoto IDs working when a significant proportion of the population are legally entitled to present themselves as Darth Vader lookalikes.
Poppa - Women who wear a Burka or Niqab are still obliged to have passport / driving licence photos taken bare-faced - no different for election ID cards. They would be required to unveil for an official behind a privacy curtain - as at airports etc.
I simply cannot accept the idea of having an ID card. I was against it then, and I am against it now. It just smacks too much of the "papieren bitte"-Raps
+1
Happy to take my yUK passport along whenever I need to prove my ID (and should we get the Blue ones back I'll be even happier, they were works of art).
You will never persuade the Brits that ID cards are a good idea.
Having lived in Hong Kong for many years, where everyone who is born or wants to work there must have an ID card; ladies and gentlemen, it works. With open borders as we have in the UK now, a way to separate those who should be there and those who should not, an ID card, (smart card that doubles as a driving licence, doctors registration etc), makes sense. Yes a policeman can ask you to present it whenever asked, but it is a small price to pay for the security and convenience it brings.
Yes a policeman can ask you to present it whenever asked, but it is a small price to pay for the security and convenience it brings.
Can you imagine the howls from our black, asian, arab 'communities'?
I've nothing against ID cards other than the outrageous cost mooted at the time. But we already have ID cards; they are commonly known as passports. No passport, no vote.
I too am against ID cards in principle and having to produce them ad hoc in the street on the request of a Police Officer.
But the idea of having to present photo ID for important official occasions and when interfacing with official departments is not too much to ask.
Especially because of the current levels of fraud.
Absolute NO to ID cards. They had to abandon them last time because several million like me wouldn't and still won't submit to that shite. And they couldn't afford to force us.
At the time I was still naïve about population replacement. But I see NO reason why those who want to come here can't have an ID card. For them --not us.
Better still is no migrant getting the vote for 100 years after they arrive. Along with abolishing postal votes and jail for young snot students trying to vote twice.
However they already have driving licences and passports so that will have to do. Beyond what already exists the answer is no. And that will be pushed as far as it goes. I will not be branded by the state. I will not be fined. And I will not submit to any state violence offered.
Jack ketch 8 March 2018 at 10:16
'Kin 'ell Jack. You actually agree with me on something.
Still there's a first for everything.
Incidentally what you call a yUK passport, is actually a EU passport. The Royal crest is just to dupe you into thinking it's British. The real indication of authority lies right at the very top of the passport itself - where it says "European Union"
.....and yes I'll be a very happy bunny when we get the old Blue ones back.
Mr Ecks 8 March 2018 at 14:23
" I will not be branded by the state. I will not be fined. And I will not submit to any state violence offered."
You took the words right out of my mouth.
Raedwald said:
'It is an erosion of part of our national congruence, part of the trust that used to prevail when the vast majority in these isles gave great respect to the notion of 'fairness'.'
Goes back a long way mate:
"My son," said the Norman Baron, "I am dying, and you will be heir
To all the broad acres in England that William gave me for share
When he conquered the Saxon at Hastings, and a nice little handful it is.
But before you go over to rule it I want you to understand this:–
"The Saxon is not like us Normans. His manners are not so polite.
But he never means anything serious till he talks about justice and right.
When he stands like an ox in the furrow – with his sullen set eyes on your own,
And grumbles, 'This isn't fair dealing,' my son, leave the Saxon alone.
I too am not in favour of ID cards - and I'm in possession of the one's issued to my grandparents during the war. The relationship between the government and the governed is deteriorating all the time: social cohesion is being eaten alive by mass immigration. England will never be the same again and I'm talking about trust. When one side loses it so does the other.
Steve
".....and yes I'll be a very happy bunny when we get the old Blue ones back."-Raps
Just so long they aren't the manga cartoon ones that one of the papers visualised. Who knows...they may even be printed here (for all my Europhileness that one I have never understood from a security point of view).
For once it seems I am in agreement with the majority of all the commentators here, that alone should tell Raed something.
jack ketch:"Can you imagine the howls from our black, asian, arab 'communities'"
Then those individuals may wish to consider returning to the countries of their ethnic origins, where they can face summary arrest, no prospect of trial and street execution.
Or if lucky, simply avoiding being run over by a police van, then dragged down the street while handcuffed to the vehicle ...
Luxury.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2013/feb/28/south-africa-dragged-police-video
Just to clarify - AFAIK no-one is resurrecting ID cards. Proposal is for any photo ID to be used at polling stations just for voting - or if voters don't have passport or driving license, a free electoral ID card as issued already in Northern Ireland.
Utility bill won't work. In NI you can take a utility bill plus a passport photo to an MP or Assembly member to be signed - this gets you a free voting ID card
I agree with comments here about national ID cards. That idea is, I hope, dead.
I consider myself a freeborn Briton and a loyal subject of HMQ. I can't wait to be rid of the maroon EU passport and return to a UK issue again.
But I seem to remember mine was black?
I used to be very much against ID cards and still would be if the intention was to make them a 'compulsory-carry' but as many people mention, ID is carried (or owned) in many acceptable forms ALREADY.
It is naive to think we aren't ALREADY in a 'ID state' situation so the introduction of a genuine state-issued ID card **for those that don't possess already-suitable ID such as passport, driving license etc** shouldn't offend or disabuse anyone.
The basic premise should be NO ID, NO VOTE (said ID being as per previous paragraph).
So, if you object to a State ID card you can get a (state) driving license or a (state) passport or a (state) utility bill...... what's 'your' issue???
What a strange lot you are, everybody seems to agree there is a major problem with voter fraud and a solution must be implemented, when that solution is proposed a mighty resistance is mounted.
Compare that to the carefree ambivalence to NSA/GCHQ minute-by-minute monitoring of your internet access and posting, and celphone usage and not a whisper is raised.
Security cameras on every corner monitored by the awful police departments that go out of their way to praise alien cultures in the hope of maintaining some sense of public order, whilst studiously ignoring muslim rape-gangs, have received wide-spread acceptance.
Identity cards are the least of your problems if you are truly serious about govt intrusion into your private affairs. Of course implementation of any such identification would be handled by Amber Rudd at the Home Office so a debacle would surely be guaranteed.
In Canaduh we are required to produce proof of residency before voting in federal and provincial elections, it is a minor inconvenience whilst trying to avoid illegal voters, however let me assure you it does not prevent the election of ill-qualified dumb-asses.
Casca--I can't stop what the cunts at GCHQ are up to( as far as we go probably nothing--I understand that they do the NSA's dirty work in the US and turnabout the NSA spies on us. So both sides can say they aren't spying on their own country). But I can sink their fucking plan to have the state label me. We do what we can.
Why all this fuss about being able to vote? When did it actually make any difference? Don't vote, deligitimise the scum at all levels of government!
As the old lady from Darwen said a long time ago "It doesn't matter who I vote for, the government always gets in!" Oh how we 20 year olds (at the time) laughed at her ignorance. In the more than 40 years since, I think many of us have come to realise how wise she was, and that it makes not one jot of difference what the voters vote, or even what the gobby politicos spout, the permanent government (= civil service) just gets on with its own agenda regardless. The ONLY exception over the past 60 odd years has been the recent vote to leave the EU. It wasn't supposed to happen like that which is why all the underhand shenanigans are going on now.
As for me, regardless of the vote, I get Bercow. They did crown him Speaker for Life, didn't they?
Mr Ecks, gran-ma used to call that "cutting off your nose to spite your face". If you wish to enable corbyns marxist ranks at the expense of a slight intrusion of your "privacy" (which has already and continuously been massively breached by govt, so you are hardly revealing anything) that is your right. We deal with the world as we find it, not as some utopian concept.
Perhaps a review of what Snowden told us all is in order.
Anon-perhaps you will perceive that since the Brexit referendum, election of President Trump, recent outcomes in Italy, Catalonia, Austria, Germany etc that the individual vote is still powerful. The problem in yUK is the dismal quality of candidates, largely due to party selection of "ideal" candidates. If you continue to vote for those parties then your vote is indeed wasted.
The notion of fairness has been steadily eroded as our sense of nationhood has been debased by mass immigration of cultures which are not compatible with ours.
Can't see anything being done about that..... now or ever.
So another strand of "Britishness" ..... the need to carry ID to prove who you are ..... has to go.
Most people eligible to vote now have a Passport or photo Driving Licence so providing there is provision for the few who don't have either, I don't see a problem in presenting photo-ID when I go to vote.
What they now need to do is deal with the corruption and fraud which persists in the postal voting system.
Not in favour of ID. Beware the law of unintended consequences. Reverse the laxity that has developed over postal votes. Everyone except the very ill or the incapacitated must turn up in person. And where I am over the last few years the booths are no longer secure. No curtain so voters actions can be observed. Not good for the intimidated.
I don't think this is the answer. There are places in Bankok that can produce any ID you care to mention. I heard of one chap that got himself a 'press pass ' that gets him into any popular event at no cost.
@anon (17:23)
any ID is only as good as the checks made against it.
If a national ID card is what it takes for us to re-establish our (the peoople's) authority then I'm all for it.
Part of the problem here is that different people mean different things when they say: ID Card. Passports, Driving licences, old fashioned paper/photo cards are dumb (up to a point Lord Copper).
The envisaged ID "card" of Bliar infamy would have been intelligent - like a revved-up bank card. Lots of details would have been available at the state officials' fingertips (or card reader!). And no doubt the amount of detail would have inexorably risen over the years. I am opposed to an intelligent ID but okay with simple photo/address ID.
Of course a lot of the problems are the result of excessive immigration, and the clash of cultures, rather than ID. As often is the case we have a number of possible solutions available but we (or our government) are too vain and politically-correct to implement them.
For almost two decades we have suffered massive immigration, often officially around half a million a year (the figures of c250k/300k are net, so don't indicate the extent of the influx). NINos indicate it is a lot more. Out of the EU we can control the numbers, but we will have to force the establishment to do so. We could also put a 25 year time limit on any immigrant's right to welfare and vote.
There was an identity card in what was once Britain back in the WW2.
I had one
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