tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post1230227100171234198..comments2023-09-28T13:28:52.243+01:00Comments on Raedwald: Grenfell TowerRaedwaldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11699610899843349594noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-65663590712473795122018-07-13T11:03:47.575+01:002018-07-13T11:03:47.575+01:00Nice post. it is very interesting and informative....Nice post. it is very interesting and informative. Thank you.<br /><a href="http://www.harshapeb.com/gallery.html" rel="nofollow">Peb Structure in Chennai</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15021334167023325552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-46487457980998067302017-08-24T10:49:40.376+01:002017-08-24T10:49:40.376+01:00Very instructive blog and special comments really ...Very instructive blog and special comments really helpful for understanding about building control types about costumer safety. However, it's true that the government and the media mafia seems to think that it will defiantly take years to produce a report, actually what was happening there. Its been much informative and reasonable knowledge in your blog post. <a href="http://www.airsculpt-facades.com/solid-surface-facade/" rel="nofollow">Exterior Cladding System</a> of Aluminum is create a big issue. in shot all the questions are back off, the main point how did this fire start???? <br /> Addisonfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02438308276362442678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-80203770580975005892017-07-28T19:17:54.674+01:002017-07-28T19:17:54.674+01:00Anyone know the exact spec of the original (Archit...Anyone know the exact spec of the original (Architect speccd) zinc cladding and the one speccd in the price given by the first Contractor? <br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-82069069218212813532017-07-28T13:11:31.266+01:002017-07-28T13:11:31.266+01:00No mention of the kitchen extractor? Extractors fr...No mention of the kitchen extractor? Extractors from kitchens have caused fires before, grease oil in piping from the extractor is never cleaned and over years can build up.<br />https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/idoxWAM/doc/Other-952368.pdf?extension=.pdf&id=952368&location=VOLUME2&contentType=application/pdf&pageCount=1<br /><br />New extractors fans to the outside from the kitchen?<br /><br />Today the BBC news aired an article about replacing the panels, you can see the extractor fans after they removed the rain panels, but not on the flats with the panels still on, future over they showed the new insulation, covering the extractor openings?<br /><br />We all now know that the panels and insulation caught fire, but the authorities seem to moving the cause of the fire onto them, it wasn't the panels that caused the fire, it was the ignition of them, what caused that ignition on he outside of the building?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-77821340309374046702017-06-27T22:55:06.614+01:002017-06-27T22:55:06.614+01:00Very impressive blog and comments. It's also w...Very impressive blog and comments. It's also worth mentioning the extremely noxious gases given off by the panels as they burnt. Three of the survivors in hospital have had to be treated with a cyanide antidote. There has also been talk of the smoke extraction system in the stairwell not functioning as it should have....Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07495202076255594187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-36373470108336847492017-06-26T11:22:28.004+01:002017-06-26T11:22:28.004+01:00what happened on the grenfell tower construction s...what happened on the grenfell tower construction site , the u.k health and safety executive on site regulations and site checks done , very very strict about what building material can be used on the construction site . most have to comply with the british standard Institution, some must have know there where sub standard materialsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-45221434884630655422017-06-24T07:06:53.608+01:002017-06-24T07:06:53.608+01:00As I read it the original architects specified zin...As I read it the original architects specified zinc clad panels, the change to the cheaper PE ones was signed off subsequently by a firm involved in the project management of the cladding installation, IBI Taylor Young. Anyone know more? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-91719366529629926252017-06-23T16:43:43.395+01:002017-06-23T16:43:43.395+01:00A very good post. I'd be interested to know wh...A very good post. I'd be interested to know whether the combination of the replacement alluminium windows and the cladding was the reason for the internal (killing) impact of the fire. It's very striking that all the windows have burnt out allowing the flames to get inside the building, intensifying the fire and taking lives.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-33217810283498852452017-06-22T22:28:53.818+01:002017-06-22T22:28:53.818+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Judy W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00569808624342060117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-37749867663634264712017-06-20T22:51:34.810+01:002017-06-20T22:51:34.810+01:00On another blog I've been trying to explain th...On another blog I've been trying to explain the difference between the Requirements in Schedule 1 of the English Building Regulations, which are the actual building regulations, and the Approved Documents which are one route to compliance. <br /><br />Requirement B4 (1) says: 'The external walls of the building shall adequately resist the spread of fire over the walls... '<br /><br />People have been arguing that if the material is certified as suitable to be marketed in the EEA as a cladding material then it 'complies with the building regulations'. However, it is clear that the cladding system at Grenfell Tower failed self-evidently to comply with Requirement B4 (1).<br /><br />As you have done, I argued that certification of individual components does not relieve the designer and building control of responsibility to ensure that the final assembly of these components results in a system that is functional and safe.<br /><br />Design-and-construct contracts marginalise the person that should carry out this function - the architect and the place of the architect has, at best been usurped by the contractor's 'design co-ordinator' or at worst by the naive belief that cobbling together a number of sub-contractors' design and fit packages is the same as designing a building.<br /><br />CDM is a joke. How can someone who has not designed the building be the 'principal designer'? The F10 form is also a farce. In other EU countries the information that we put up on an A4 piece of paper in a corner of the site hut has to be displayed on a large sign on the perimeter of the site so that the public know who is responsible for the work.<br /><br />A couple of other points:<br /><br />It appears from the RB K and C building control website that this work was carried out under a building notice, as for a small kitchen extension, rather than a full plans approval application. The current status of the building notice is 'Completed Not approved' ( https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/bconline/buildingControlDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=_RBKC_BCAPR_124682 )<br /><br />It is still not clear what the main insulation material was - Rockwool or Celotex FR5000. The Architects' Journal says it was Celotex FR5000.<br /><br />Although it's clear that Reynobond PE and Celotex FR5000 both had a Class O spread of flame rating under BS476, we know that the BS476 test excludes the chimney effect. At Grenfell Tower we had a 50mm ventilation cavity that probably acted as a chimney. Did it have cavity barriers? We don't know whether Reynobond PE and Celotex FR5000 also met the additional limited combustibility requirement of Approved Document B Vol 2 paras 12.5 to 12.9 and Table A7. Seamusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-27705917426647058952017-06-20T02:49:44.885+01:002017-06-20T02:49:44.885+01:00James Higham @ 23:46 --- Very brave of you to say ...James Higham @ 23:46 --- Very brave of you to say so, sir!anon 2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-82590837284851046762017-06-19T23:46:16.467+01:002017-06-19T23:46:16.467+01:00Someone then was deliberately culpable.Someone then was deliberately culpable.James Highamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14525082702330365464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-13029473411165935892017-06-19T11:18:16.001+01:002017-06-19T11:18:16.001+01:00Anon
In a building with a working fire alarm, an o...Anon<br />In a building with a working fire alarm, an operational dry riser and a dedicated firefighter elevator the shelter-in-place command might make sense as presumably the firefighters could get to the source quickly and effectively. Presumably most of the fires you reference are handled by one fire-fighter and a hand held extinguisher. I am commenting specifically on Grenfell Tower where the LFB had specific knowledge of the danger, had a large exterior fire on their hands that they knew they could not fight, yet blindly followed "procedure". I think it is fair to pre-judge such stupidity.<br /><br />I am dubious that the scenario you describe of a fridge fire is capable of igniting the exterior cladding, but if you are correct it speaks poorly of european electrical safety, as well as construction.Cascadiannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-87420865416904528252017-06-19T08:50:18.066+01:002017-06-19T08:50:18.066+01:00Cascadian,
It seems there are two fires per day in...Cascadian,<br />It seems there are two fires per day in tower blocks in the London area.<br />For 99% of these, staying-put is the correct advice.<br />These fires are small and internal and contained in apartments and there would be chaos and possible death by trampling and panic if entire tower blocks were evacuated down stairwells every time someone's frying pan went up.<br />I think you might be right that in this specific case it should have been very obvious that this wasnt a normal contained apartment fire and that the decision to order everyone out ASAP should have been made immediately if not a lot sooner.<br />Not fair to prejudge the official investigation though, but you could be right.<br /><br />Fridges can be nasty. Many possibilities. Ice-maker motors can jam and start fire. The insulation around the fridge is the same foam as the cladding on the building.<br />Fridge catches fire. Kitchen wallpaper catches fire. Window cracks and breaks and the fire is out and lighting-up the cladding.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-14252585574690879712017-06-19T08:30:23.033+01:002017-06-19T08:30:23.033+01:00Radders.
Thinking more about your mention of CDM. ...Radders.<br />Thinking more about your mention of CDM. I think you could be onto something.<br />This is a quick and simple fix.<br />It's actually hard to believe that the Principal Designer currently has no role during construction phase.<br />It is hard to believe that the regulations spell out the importance of the Designer having to 'take account of health and safety issues arising' from the chosen products and materials, but then provides no way for the Principal Designer to ensure that this is actually done.<br /><br />Here's my suggestion (for all works other than Domestic Client) : -<br /><br />CDM 2015<br />Regulation 10<br />72. The person who selects products for use in construction is a designer and must take account of health and safety issues arising from their use.<br />ADD<br />The Principal Designer must inspect the construction works from time to time at appropriate stages to ensure (as far as is practically possble) that the specified products are being correctly installed.<br /><br />Liaising with the principal contractor<br />107 The principal designer must liaise with the principal contractor for the duration<br />of their appointment . . . . <br /><br />CHANGE TO<br />107 The principal designer must liaise with the principal contractor for the duration of the works until Practical Completion.<br /><br />ADD<br />If the principal designer’s appointment finishes before the end of the project, the client must immediately appoint another principal designer or stop construction until such time as another principal designer is appointed.<br /><br />ADD<br />The Principal Designer must be directly appointed by the Client and not as third party or Sub Contractor.<br />The Principal Contractor cannot be the Principal Designer.<br />The Principal Contractor cannot be the Client.<br /><br />- - - <br /><br />The Government could have this passed in the House this afternoon they wanted.<br />Job done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-92069141095071022017-06-19T05:34:36.995+01:002017-06-19T05:34:36.995+01:00I have no doubt that an inquiry will eventually id...I have no doubt that an inquiry will eventually identify all errors in the construction of the curtain wall simply because there are so many sources of documents.<br /> <br />What I am less certain about is an enquiry into the actions of the London Fire Brigade, who seem to be culpable due to poor decision making. We have been told that the dry riser system was compromised, the fire alarm inoperative, and the exterior curtain wall heavily compromised when they arrived. All of which would be immediately obvious-yet the order was given to shelter-in-place. With no way to fight the fire internally, too little equipment, that could barely operate above ten stories on the exterior, then evacuation was obviously required, even if it would be hazardous and probably cause some fatalities.<br /><br />Once again we see that reliance on public services can be lethal. <br /><br />As yet, I have not heard a logical explanation how an exploding refrigerator could penetrate the exterior wall and start this disastrous fire. Some other source is undoubtedly the cause. Reports of multiple blue flashes seem to indicate an electrical problem, but again that should be limited to the interior space.<br />And whatever happened to pressurizing stairwells and escape corridors to minimize smoke ingress, which aids evacuation?<br />Cascadiannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-85925511385704404692017-06-18T22:14:38.810+01:002017-06-18T22:14:38.810+01:00Back in the eighties, I worked with a great compan...Back in the eighties, I worked with a great company which was trying to get on the cladding ladder for sheds and buildings like this.<br /><br />The big enemy was Factory Mutual back then, and it took us ages to convince tem they were wrong, and that composite cladding had a decent future, not a disaster.<br /><br />They lost - we won, and the buildings we created still stand and are still safe.<br /><br />It's not always about the specification, just the huge insurance companies getting in the way.Scrobs.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12942449871600526680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-59440941918224275982017-06-18T21:32:24.243+01:002017-06-18T21:32:24.243+01:00Top notch post and comments, I too worried about t...Top notch post and comments, I too worried about the potential 'knock off' origin of the materials used.Thudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18320037763190473684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-86255475336700860952017-06-18T20:18:29.390+01:002017-06-18T20:18:29.390+01:00This is just a thought from one with no related kn...This is just a thought from one with no related knowledge.<br />I notice that the new window frames had been set out from the original building face in a box like structure, no doubt to bring the finished window flush with the new cladding. Any flame going up inside the cladding would bear directly the underside of those "boxes." Depending on the integrity of the material (sheet alluminium ?) could this have been the entry that allowed the fire into the room interiors.RACnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-37721933723116906232017-06-18T19:25:29.989+01:002017-06-18T19:25:29.989+01:00I'm here in Michigan bemusedly reading the Dai...I'm here in Michigan bemusedly reading the Daily Mail and am impressed that in less than 24 hours they found their Emmanuel Goldstein in the company that installed the cladding. Over a quarter of the story detailing his £2 million house, his luxury car abd lavish vacations. The mob is well and truly whipped up. <br /><br />To my mind the ultimate responsibility lies with the owner, but since that seems to be the Council they will prove to be an unsatifactory villain as bureaucrats are past masters at ducking blame. No, the eeebil rich folks are much more satisfying. And the less said about Corbyn being hot to confiscate.... err requisition homes of the local rich the better. Were I PM I would put out an appeal to those owing vacant houses to take in the displaced, thus differentiating myself from Labour's crude envy and theft.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-20745342933035301692017-06-18T18:47:47.645+01:002017-06-18T18:47:47.645+01:00As the hours pass it looks more like non-complianc...As the hours pass it looks more like non-compliance. Just heard a government minister on the early evening news say the cladding type used in the Grenfell Tower refurb is not approved for the UK.<br /><br />SteveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-18984504729816123632017-06-18T14:42:28.253+01:002017-06-18T14:42:28.253+01:00Anon - horrified to say it does look like an unbra...Anon - horrified to say it does look like an unbranded Kingspan-type material in that pic; on the face of it, this can't be used over 18m for inhabited buildings BUT looking at the Kingspan website, they offer a neat guide for getting around the Building Regs - http://www.kingspaninsulation.co.uk/getattachment/dc8cf2c7-5e23-4d9a-9a1f-96bdf571ecdd/Techncial-Bulletin--Routes-to-Compliance--Fire-Saf.aspx<br /><br />The seemingly unbranded material itself raises many questions - BBA Agrément Certificate? Fire testing / compliance? Case study exemption data using this product? If it was just a cheap knock-off Kingspan clone from Thailand it makes for unbelieveable negligenceRaedwaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11699610899843349594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-12815295241226011882017-06-18T14:37:05.711+01:002017-06-18T14:37:05.711+01:00Thanks for the education Raedwald - and the others...Thanks for the education Raedwald - and the others here. I was listening to an interview broadcast by the BBC yesterday evening, and it was Owen Jones and he was leading a demonstration outside Downing Street. I won't bore you all with the nonsense this child speaks but the very fact that the media wants his opinion on anything is really quite disturbing.<br /><br />Have they found the Ethiopian yet?<br /><br />SteveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-32819321401157695462017-06-18T14:10:26.805+01:002017-06-18T14:10:26.805+01:00On CDM, you'll know that original CDM Regs had...On CDM, you'll know that original CDM Regs had the magical new role of CDM Co-ordinator.<br />A box-ticking exercise able to be carried out by, well pretty much anyone really as there was no qualification required.<br />A lot of QS practices took it up eagerly as a little something extra but people were soon doing it for £50<br />There was no 'design function' it was entirely clerical.<br />Realising the pointlessness of it they evolved it into CDM 2015 - did away with the vague CDMc and rebadged the guy responsible as the 'principal designer'<br />A recognition in name at least that the creative driver was the guy doing the drawings but still couldnt quite bring themsleves to say 'Architect'.<br />You're criminally liable if you arent a qualified gas fitter and you so much as look at a gas pipe but your granny can lodge Planning and Building Warrants. Even better if they are subcontracted and controlled by the Contractor.<br /><br /><br />I can hear it now, the call for 'more regulation'. It's a false sense of security, people assuming that 'someone else' is always looking after them.<br />If the CDM process wasnt followed then theyll say "oh look what happens when you break the regulations!!" Jail them.<br />Im sure it was followed. And yet it happened. Because it's very possible that all 'Regulations' were followed and that this is a loophole.<br />Perhaps someone in the Design Team was actually uneasy abot these boards. Perhaps the guys fixing them werent sure either but hey it passes the 'regulations' and the online CDM Notication to HSE was correctly completed so it must be ok right? Relying on regulations and not personal instinct is not good.<br />I can legally drive at 60mph on a country lane withing the regulations but it doesnt mean that every bend is safe to take at that speed.<br /><br />Theres a proliferation of contractor-led 'Hubs' that a large number of public work is being procured through.<br />Professional fees are completely abysmal for these and then the contractors are incredibly brutal in driving down the fees of design consultants, post award.<br />Not to mention the disastrous policy of PFI introduced under Labour, we are paying billions to private funders on interest rates that even Wonga would be ashamed to charge, when construction of a new jail costs £80m yet the total repayment by the tax payer over the lifetime of the project is close to £1bn!<br /><br />Public bodies are genuinely terrified of selecting anyone other than the lowest fee bid in case the press or public attack them for ‘wasting public money’.<br />Public tenders are often managed by someone with little or no construction or architectural background, a ‘procurement manager’ that can be purchasing cleaning services one day and then asked to procure a design team the next.<br />They don’t know what the critical issues are or questions that should be asked of a potential bidder. They'll cut and paste European Journal PQQ template.<br />which ask meaningless procedural information (eg equal opportunity policy, discrimation policy) above project specific issues.<br />The new standardised PQQ produced under Govt's procurement review has about 110 questions of which only 3 relate to technical proficiency & experience.<br />Standard practice is to ask for examples of near identical completed projects but no assessment whether they are actually any good. So the same Contracting Consortium and practices produce the same buildings, making the same mistakes.<br /><br />And if you're 'lucky' enough to get through the PQQ, some hopeless practice (and they're depressing in number) goes and buys the job anyway.<br />Architecture is broken.<br />This won't be fixed quickly. I'm certainly curious as to what way it will go.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1537213245172078183.post-17535571185795793052017-06-18T14:10:10.836+01:002017-06-18T14:10:10.836+01:00Radders
I can see how it looks like Rockwool in th...Radders<br />I can see how it looks like Rockwool in the 'after' pics you linked but I think that's charred PIR boards.<br />If you look at the 'before' pics from the Architect's website I'm prety sure that is an (unbranded?) foil face Polyisocyanurate (ISO) board.<br />Can tell by the ochre coloured core and the neat way it has been sawed on the splay.<br />Seems to be double layered on the spandrels between windows and single layered on the triangle detail up the structural mullions.<br /><br />Theres a storey level cavity-barrier stuck on there too but frankly I cant see what good it would do with flaming Reynobond/Alucobond up the outside and PIR up the back.<br />And I agree that the 2mm aluminium sandwich could be a big part of this. Especially glowing white hot and dripping down to the PIR below.<br /><br />I read it was (maybe?) a faulty fridge. But it could be someone leaving a frying pan on.<br />Any kitchen fire is going along the ceiling, out the window and lapping up to the exposed cladding soffit.<br /><br />http://imgur.com/a/tWjtH<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com