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Thursday, 17 October 2019

Catalonia, Kurdistan .. we either believe in self-determination or we don't

As our own struggle to free ourselves from the adhesive embrace of the anti-democratic nascent empire of the EU reaches its climax, I think we must spare a few thoughts from those elsewhere equally determined to assert their freedom and identity.

The right to self determination was first penned in modern times by Churchill and Roosevelt in August 1941, long before America entered the war and when Britain faced its darkest hours. The Atlantic Charter is a document of enormous hope and of confidence in the triumph of good and right over the dark and evil authoritarianism that had enveloped Europe;
..Third, they respect the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they will live; and they wish to see sovereign rights and self-government restored to those who have been forcibly deprived of them;
After the victorious alliance founded a permanent United Nations organisation, Article 1 of the New UN Charter signed in 1945 stated
To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
Of course what constitutes a 'people' is open to debate, but I believe that most of us will be able to recognise a genuine claim to a distinct identity and one that is contrived. Thus we can agree that Scotland, Wales and Ireland are distinct from England, but perhaps not that Wessex is so distinguished. The Kurds have a strong claim to self-determination, their people spread across largely artificial borders drawn after the Great War so that they are divided between Turkey, Syria and Iraq. The Catalans in the east of the neck of the Iberian peninsula have a claim at least equal to the basques in the west.

Self determination is an anathema to the global supremicists, who would abolish all national borders, all distinct national identities, to achieve a homogeneous mass of subjects of global government, global corporatism and global law and administration at the hands of a priestly caste of unelected experts. They dismiss self determination as 'nationalism' just as they dismiss democracy as 'populism'.

Well, I'm on the side of self determination. As a democrat and a localist you would expect no less of me. And the EU? They will side with those suppressing freedom, those imposing the authoritarian rule of conquest on their subject peoples. You would expect no more from them. If the Catalans imagine they will find support in Brussels, they are cruelly deceived.  


Smoking Scot said...

Overall I agree with your sentiments. However NOT by the use of force, be that weapons or just plain intimidation.

Scotland is one of the better behaved, yet it too has its dark side with independence headbangers quite happy to beat up on people who disagree with them.

Catalonia had their vote, however less than 50% chose to cast their ballot. Those who are happy with things just abstained.

There are wheels within wheels on this issue of national identity - and once in a while that results in a piss poor compromise, like Kashmir.

I admit to knowing little about the Basque issue, but terrorism, like NI just doesn't do it for me. They lose the minute they kill.

The Kurd issue is IMO valid and the West does need to support their cause. It's a right bugger though because they claim bits of Syria, Turkey, Iraq and Iran. And those bits have oil, so problem.

I do look at South Sudan and see endemic corruption and incompetence. Are they better off now? For the average S Sudanese, probably not.

But don't kid yourself, much of the agitation is encouraged because all these tin pot creations need military equipment and investment - and that's big money.

So I'm kind of hesitant about a lot of this nationalist stuff and do feel we must get serious about extremes we see, like in Myanmar with their Muslim minorities. Or the China occupation of Tibet.

Re the EU and the big B. It's a glaring example of why big issues need to be put to the people, freely and fairly - and respected.

And big B is why precious few will get that opportunity in the future.

JPM said...

The nationalists among the Catalans are fully aware, that internal constitutional matters for European Union member states such as Spain are entirely sovereign for them.

They would therefore have no expectation whatsoever that any European Union institution would break its Treaty commitments and meddle in those affairs by supporting either side.

Those separatists are also pretty resolutely pro-European Union.

The institutions of the European Union were silent on the Scottish referendum, even if the Spanish government were not.

However, once the UK has left, I'd fully expect Scotland to receive warm support for its intended secession from the UK, from its friends and soon-to-be fellow members of the European Union, and indeed from its institutions too.

If Catalonia did secede from Spain and rejoin the European Union, then it would be back up to twenty-eight member countries again, amusingly.

Dave_G said...

The Catalans, like many who have grown up in the midst of an insinuating and oppressively undermining EU may well have more of an opinion on their independence than the voting numbers suggest, in the same way the British Government underestimated the level of opposition to the EU when they thought a Referendum would be an easy win for Remain.

No one likes to be told what to do, either on an individual basis, as a community or a population and efforts to restrict such intentions have only bottled up frustrations and anger that is now becoming apparent.

The challenge now is whether or not the oppressors (the EU) will recognise the demands of the people and adapt to their needs rather than try to shape them to a system they naturally resent.

And just because the French, Germans etc haven't had their say (openly - the likes of Afd and their ilk point towards future problems) doesn't give the EU the right to carry on with their political intent without a mandate - something most Europeans haven't had a say in on ANY aspect of the EU's creation and it's time the EU put its plans to the people before it's too late and the people take matters into their own hands.

Stephen J said...

Not everybody wants power, not everybody who has power wants to execute it, but in my view, everyone wants to know who the powerful are and how to let them know of your issues and concerns. The smallest configuration is best, so I would be happy to see self rule for Wessex.

It is no coincidence that post WW1 there were somewhere around 50 countries and now there are over 200.

The Kurds, being a feisty mob, were deliberately left out when it came to the creation of middle-eastern nations at the break up of the Ottoman empire. The French and the British made a massive mistake, but then lost influence after WW2, Even so, they have a legitimate claim and they understand that democracy is NOT going to cut it in their neck of the woods, they have to use force.

I remember standing on a friend's lawn, my friend, a lefty was hating on Mrs. Thatcher, in those days I was not so argumentative and I was just listening even though I disagreed. A mutual friend (let's call him Hassan) was standing close by, and as Tony said something particularly nasty and fatuous about her, Hassan chimed in and said... You have no idea, do you?

He was at the time quite close to my friend, he was living with his sister, indeed they still live with each other in Spain now. He just calmly pointed out that when he was a boy he was taken to a town in Turkey by his dad. During the trip they were stopped by a policeman who soon established that he was a Kurd, he took his father to one side and shot him in the head.

The discussion about the awful Margaret Thatcher came to a very swift conclusion.

The Kurds without a legitimate homeland are especially badly treated because they are then subdivided amongst three nations who all universally hate Kurds. Niceties like elections have no place there, and if those amongst us who don't seem to be able to play the democracy game, persist in their mission to overthrow it understood what happens when this stuff goes wrong, or indeed even understood history at all, they wouldn't be trying to ignore it.

Mark said...


Stephen J said...

What is?

Sackerson said...

@r_writes: Mrs Clinton, presumably.

DiscoveredJoys said...


Assuming Brexit goes ahead, and the Scots vote for independence, what makes you think that the EU would be willing to accept Scotland as a new member without a great deal of negotiating first?

Coutries applying for accession have to fulfil certain criteria. Like the Copenhagen criteria which includes financial robustness and also the need to enact legislation to bring their laws into line with the body of European law built up over the history of the Union, known as the acquis communautaire.

It is far from clear if Scotland, as a 'new' applicant, would clear the hurdles so easily. Plus there's the land border with non-EU contries to consider...

Stephen J said...

Surely any application from the Scots will be met reasonably quickly, since the EU delights in telling stupid politicians what to do, and Scotland qualifies with its politicians.

Wildgoose said...

The EU has blinked.

I still say Leave Oct 31, but I think the odds of leaving with a Deal have now gone over 50% - i.e. more likely than not.

Most of the senior EU politicians are 2nd-rate lightweights, with the exception (to my mind) of Donald Tusk.

And when he had his "You don't want a Deal!" outburst last week I thought he was just projecting - the EU don't want a Deal, they want to keep extending until we revoke or failing that, making us (in their own words remember) "a colony of the EU".

But I may have read that wrong. I think it was Tusk realising that we really are going to leave on Oct 31, come what may.

And so the EU have blinked.

Of course, the Fake News media are now saying the DUP are the sticking point.

Add innumeracy to their crimes.

Even with the DUP, Johnson doesn't have a majority.

The Lib Dems (and the SNP, etc.) will vote against a Deal. The Lib Dems because they want to revoke. The SNP because they want to use Brexit as an excuse for a 2nd Independence Referendum, and so can't be seen as voting for the Deal.

So it's down to Labour.

They've sat on the fence for so long that this is now going to really expose their own divisions.

I heard one of the Traitor MPs on the R4 Today programme objecting to Boris having the House of Commons sit on Saturday to (presumably) vote on a Deal. She wanted him to have to write his letter requesting an extension and for us to stay in.

It occurs to me that if Boris presents them with a Deal on Saturday he can legitimately argue that if they reject the Deal then that supercedes the Surrender Act that we can't leave without a Deal - because Parliament will have voted down a Deal we could leave with, thereby overriding the Surrender Act themselves.

So it's all down to Labour now. Their decision. This is a joy to behold. They wanted to trap Boris and have ended up caught in their own trap.

Mark said...


Didn't Spain make it absolutely crystal clear that they would veto Scotland joining the EU for the screamingly obvious reason that this would massively boost Catalan separatism?

That Catalonia would likely gain nothing from being an EU vassal in it's own right being neither here nor there.

I don't think Spain was the only one.

Of course, when the Brest-Litovsk treaty comes into force, Spain may well find itself out voted, but that would be their problem.

If Scotland did have another properly constituted referendum and voted to leave I for one would not stand in their way. The wastemonster political class might cause mischief but I'm not sure on who's behalf they would imagine they would be doing so.

If Scotland did leave. Best of luck to them. They'd certainly need it if they wanted to apply for EU vassal status, which there is no guarantee they would get.

As far as the wannabe imperial bureaucracy/kleptocracy is concerned their empire exists. It's just that too many dumb peasants have the quaint belief that they live in "sovereign states". These peasants need to be educated!

Anoneumouse said...

There is a message in the following statement;

I love catalonian champagne.

(think about it)

Mark said...

"I love Catalonia champagne"

AKA "EU golden shower" - please let me have one!

rapscallion said...

JPM @ 08:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Usual form of words dictated to you by your EU overseer.

What you have omitted to mention (by no means by accident), is the the EU has quite happily turned a blind eye to the jailing by the Spanish authorities of democratically elected representatives merely for seeking self-determination. The EUSSR claims that it is an internal Spanish affair and won't get involved, despite the fact that what the Spanish have done contravenes the EUSSR's "values".

At the same time however the EUSSR see no problem in poking their noses into the business of Poland and Hungary because they refuse to take in economic migrants/7th century barbarians, via means of taking away their vote or punishing them financially.

You are a stinking hypocrite

Dave_G said...

An interesting scenario would be a Scottish vote for independence in the ratio 52/48.

Would this sanction politically and legally motivated actions to stop it? What kind of deal would they arrange with their biggest trading partners (England)? What about the border issue?

No doubt the hypocritical windbag Sturgeon would pass off these as 'irrelevant' and push forward in the manner she wants. The whole idea that this is an actual possibility makes me fume with indignation!

Then again, the Independence issue is, as ever, blown out of all proportion in respect to its so-called support as, on the ground and asking people, the idea of independence is doomed to failure (for Sturgeon).

The SNP remind me a lot of the American Democrats - always blaming others for their problems and incapable of sorting out policy or enacting workable ideas. It's always 'someone else's fault'.......

Elby the Beserk said...

On the matter of Wessex, Radders, you are wrong. DNA found in Neanderthal remans in Mendip caves have been found in the local population. Wessex folk have been here a long time. We demand UDI and will be putting up tractor and burning tyres along the M4 and A36 to protect what is ours, which being mostly rural means food, cider, guns and dogs.

We are also magnificently monucultural. Bristol, of course, as a new suburb of London will not be part of Wessex

Free Wessex

Raedwald said...

Elby lol! ;)

Anonymous said...

Front page of the Telegraph. Boris behind bars and Dolly Parton fulminating about DUP obstructionism.

Anonymous said...

"DNA found in Neanderthal remains in Mendip caves have been found in the local population."

It's a good article, well worth reading.
But the skeleton in question dates from around 10,000 years ago, and the Neanderthals died out 40,000 years ago. The word "Neanderthal" doesn't appear in the article: it has popped up from somewhere in your brain. ;-)

Don Cox

Mark said...

Unconscious association with something on this site methinks

I spy with my little eye something beginning with T.....

Stuart said...

What a shame we stopped at Hitler. The Peoples of Eastern Europe might have liked the choice over what forms of government they lived under.

Anonymous said...

Why is Junker advocating no extension? What does he know?

JPM said...

Anon, maybe he just wants to give Farage a helpful shove personally, at the top of the European Union Parliament steps?

Doonhamer said...

Brissle people oldest human group?
Nah. I've seen Holby. Not much Neanderlithic there. But definitely outa Africa.

Martin said...

"Thus we can agree that Scotland, Wales and Ireland are distinct from England"

Except that there is no indigenous population group in the UK that is genetically closer to a foreign population group than to any other UK population group.

For example, the Cornish are more closely related to the people of Orkney than they are to the people of Brittany.

And the genetic distance between Devonians and people from Dorset is actually greater than the genetic difference between the people living on either side of the English?Scottish border.

Anonymous said...

Brussels (EU) stayed out of the Spain/Catalonia punch up, respecting Spain's sovereignty.

Brussels (Belgium) got involved on policing grounds.

Which Brussels are you referring to?

Why are you against the UK's parliamentary democracy (one parliament cannot bind another)? Why are you ok for the English to stamp all over NI's right to self-determination? You'll be doing the same when Scottish independence come up?

Span Ows said...

Don Cox, I suspect the Neanderthal comment was a brain freeze mistake for Neolithic or similar? SW England most definitely had many folk from the Neolithic area, the Post Track and Sweet Track (and bits of other causeways trhough the Somerset levels date back to nearly 4000BC.

"I love Catalonia champagne"

IOCAVA? Don't get it.