Friday, 6 July 2018

WELL, PRIME MINISTER, WERE YOU LYING OR NOT?

The issue today at Chequers is very simple. Theresa May made an unequivocal promise on three red lines that she pledged on her honour she would uphold;
- An end to UK membership of the Customs Union
- An end to UK membership of the Single Market
- An end to the jurisdiction of the ECJ in the United Kingdom
The question that will be answered this weekend is simply - was she lying? 

A Prime Minister lying to Parliament is very serious indeed. A Prime Minister lying to the British people, as Blair has found, is more serious by far. For ever deprived of official honours, loathed, shunned and scorned by the people, a reputation in fouled rags, condemned to spend the rest of their pathetic lives in post-hoc apologia, begging for interviews on the 'Today' programme. 

Well, Theresa, which future do you see for yourself?


38 comments:

Cuffleyburgers said...

Well Radders

I think we all know the answer.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with staying in the single market at least for a transition period, on the Norway model, which has always been given a much worse press than it deserves.

However May seems determined to secure the worst possible arrangements by ensuring a crash and burn exit, having made no detectable preparation for what will be a deeply traumatc event.

Her plan such as it is will likely be rejected by the EU thereby ensuring endless overnight crunch summits of the sort loved by EU apparatckiks in the final weeks leading up to exit day.

Anonymous said...

May would have made a good mid level civil servant but lacks the charisma to lead from the front or the intellect and judgement to lead by example. I do not think she is evil, in the same way that Gordon Brown is not evil, but their lack of backbone meant their decisions had toxic outcomes.

I do not think we have reached peak fudge yet and there is more scope for can kicking. However you have to look on the bright side, she gave Boris enough rope and he has hung himself, Fox has also been shown to have feet of clay, which I always suspected. Gove just looks slightly odd and the new Home Secretary has not done anything to distinguish himself. In fact no one in the cabinet has distinguished themselves.

I think the Conservative Party is heading for an extinction event. I think JRM talks a good game but is unproven. At heart he is a City man playing at politics, sniping from the sidelines is easy but for example he has not widened his research group to euro sceptical MPs from other parties, which would give it more weight.

I have thought for some time that we will end up with worst possible deal, live with it for about 10 years and then when the next generation are fed up with it we will get the deal we need. Interesting times.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Cuffleyburgers, the Norway option is beckoning - or it's a clean break (and a 10 year sorting out period) or vassal state.

The Norway option (North's Flexcit plan) in a way, returns the UK to what it voted for in 1975 - a common market.

The only thing that sticks in one's craw is the idea that we must abide by treaty laws, overseen by the ECJ; these laws having been put together by parliaments that have never consulted their own peoples.

But, with the Norway option there is at least some ground to fight back and return Europe to a continent of democratic nations.

Dave_G said...


TM will get her 'just desserts' - which will be a well-paying position of her choice and a pension that makes even millionaires envious. Like all politicians, the prospect of official honours means nothing when set against financial security and a lifetime of secret admiration from her string-pullers (vis a vis Bliar).

I wonder who will be next in line to perpetuate the process? They'll hand it from one incompetent to another ad infinitum - as they started with the Camoron-to-May debacle - until someone gets hacked off enough to put a stop to it and judging by the long list of suitable applicants (/sarc) we'll still be in the EU until it collapses under its own hubris.

I just hope we're not roped in to any EU-final-survival package that drags us deeper into the mire before the inevitable happens. This is no longer about Brexit - this is about saving the EU (or trying).

Anonymous said...

@ Anonymous 09:21

Also agree with Cuffleyburgers & you - and I'm a Leave voter (who actually lives in Blighty rather than being safely installed in an EU state)

North's Flexcit plan is, well, the only actual plan other than "crash & burn". Certainly a lot more thought has gone into it than anything ever sound-bitten out by our govt or the fact-free rubbish of the "Ultras".

Also note - EFTA (inc Norway) is not overseen by the EU's ECJ - it has its own disputes resolution court. Treaty obligations need a resolution procedure - if you sign up for a treaty, you sign up for the rules - the WTO also has a "court" type body.

EFTA/EEA gets us out of the EU and out of the ECJ. May's other "promise" to leave the Single Market was the stupidest thing that the stupid woman has ever uttered - got up by just her and Nick Timothy. She needs to do a U turn - like we expect lying politicians to do.

(cue mouth foaming and cries of Traitor...)

right-writes said...

I expect that the result of today's "crunch" meeting will be another dose of can kicking incompetence.

She was well chosen by the powers that be.

rapscallion said...

I cannot agree with those who would prefer to retain membership of the Single Market/Customs Union for that brings with it free movement of people - the very thing that we voted against. Free movement permits the hordes of Africa and the middle east to scrounge of our welfare state ad infinitum, it also depressess the wages of workers already here.

Please bear in mind that the EU cannot accept what for us would be a successful Brexit, they have to punish us, and I cannot see why people cannot understand that.

There is NO middle way, there is nothing that we would agree to that the EU would accept and almost certainly vice versa. Either we reverse the Brexit decision - fatal for our future "democracy", which would lie bleeding in the dust or we accept the short term pain and nausea and just get the hell out with no deal.

right-writes said...

I only had to answer 10 captchas before getting to post my last comment.

Surely there is a better way to do this Raedwald?

right-writes said...

BTW: I concur with Rapscallion...

Flexcit is NOT leaving the EU, the only reason that this has ever had any traction is because North is confident that he knows everything, and he is always right, and his acolytes accept that.

Anonymous said...

Where to start in a fact-free environment?

"membership of the Single Market/Customs Union for that brings with it free movement of people - the very thing that we voted against"

a) customs union is not the same as Single market & has nothing to do with free movement
b) EEA Art 112/113 allows suspension of free movement
c) We didn't vote on free movement, the question was about leaving the EU

"Flexcit is NOT leaving the EU"

d) This must be some other "Flexcit" that you are talking about. The one By North and others is about leaving the EU, via EFTA/EEA. Try reading it, it's linked from his EUReferendum site.

e) North actually is (mostly) right, and knows vastly more than most - certainly more than my MP (supposedly running the country!). He's studied the subject for a long while, and uses the cunning trick known as "research" rather than just "making stuff up"

(yes, I know, https://xkcd.com/386/)

Raedwald said...

*sigh* I used to be able to post comments on my own blog without hindrance, but now even here I too have to click all the bloody street signs, all the wretched cars and all the tatty buses time after time.

It's time for a move to wordpress I think - which is what Blogger are probably trying to achieve.

I apologise for the problems and thank you for the patience and persistence you all show in persevering against such barriers.

Over 4,700 posts, over 30,000 comments and a motley of old tags outdated links and assorted clutter to transfer ... what could possibly go wrong?

right-writes said...

The EU does not deal in facts, the whole thing is based on political fantasy, so you will do just fine anon!

Experts always assume that their facts are facts but the other man's facts are not.

This is not just about money and business, it is about our constitution and about real human beings with real human needs. The human condition is comprised of different facts.

The very reason that people voted to leave was because we are tired of facts, experts only ever have one agenda, and that is to protect their position through the presentation of their facts.

The fact is that facts are in the eye of the beholder.

Mr Ecks said...


There is no crash and burn option--that is remainiac lying bollocks.

We need no deal.

And we need to gather ourselves to make the Fish Faced Cow the first UK Prime minister to be punished for her antics in office.

Perhaps not as bad as she deserves but out without compo and her pension confiscated would be a good start.

jack ketch said...


Over 4,700 posts, over 30,000 comments and a motley of old tags outdated links and assorted clutter to transfer ... what could possibly go wrong?


You might have a chat with Grandad, fellow Scriberlus , if you haven't already. He does exactly that sort of shit for a living (well to supplement his pension anyways), his rates are very reasonable and when problems occur,and they will, he is always on it and coding a solution.

Although he doesn't trumpet the fact, he it was who managed to resurrect AnnaRaccoon's several-times-nuked blog.

john cheshire said...

Anonymouse - "The Norway option (North's Flexcit plan) in a way, returns the UK to what it voted for in 1975 - a common market."

I think the third rate politicians and Civil Servants that have infested our public bodies should have listened to him in 2016. But, because of a) Not invented here mentality and b) Dr North tends to rub people up the wrong way, they just ignored him. Which tells me that none of them is mature enough to ignore the messenger and listen to the message.

Dr North may not be correct on everything but I'd expect that he's more correct than our current lot of incompetents.

Dave_G said...


Who cares who's right and who's wrong? The people have spoken and if that leads to 'disaster' (equally it could result in 'a resounding success') then it's for the PEOPLE to take control and manage their future as THEY see fit.

This is the crux of the issue - the establishment/Government/Globalists all think they know better than 'us' and are prepared to sacrifice us for their 'obviously-better-knowledge-than-anyone-else' when they clearly have ulterior motives that wite us out of all conversations.

Just leave FFS. End it. If we have to come back crawling and begging for forgiveness then lambaste us and make us 'pay' accordingly. If teh EU were that confident that this wouldn't happen then they'd STFU and leave us to it.

Ravenscar. said...

"Well, Theresa, which future do you see for yourself?"


Far more importanly: what future does she (mrs may) see for Britain?


That's the bloody problem, she has a list of stuff but with no vision, the only prime ambition is to herself and equal assignment to, what the UK establishment wishes and the good of the country its people: is not even aitting at bottom of that particular list.

Fitz said it, 'ask not what your country can do for you, ask what YOU can do for your country' !!

fat chance of that with maybot.

Cuffleyburgers said...

"There is no crash and burn option--that is remainiac lying bollocks.

We need no deal"

An opinion that can only be sustained by ignoring inconvenient facts, which is generally a lefty trait and not one I would associate with the paragons who comment here.

A clean exit might have been possible had contingency plans been made before the referendum (which Cameron shamefully and inexcusably failed to do) and serious preparations begun immediately after, which May shamefully and inexusably failed to do.

The Government having failed to take those essential steps we have to look at matters how they are and not how we would like them to be, and recognise that a phased exit is now essential to avoid horrendous and unnecessary damage to our and our neighbours' economies, and the EEA route is the most likely to bring success.

Anonymous said...

@right-writes, my heart is wholly with you; nobody dislikes this organisation, or hates its arrogance, any more than I do.

But we are going to wake up on Saturday 30th March, 2019 with no idea of how we are going to carry on trading across borders, where our planes can or can not land, or what standards we are going to follow when dealing with a whole host of transactions; the existing structures will be dead.

These things will have to be thrashed out - which will take a huge amount of time; and it's the time factor which is the most important.

Believe me, I'm amazed that I'm defending North's proposed course of action, but there are hard facts to be dealt with, and burying our heads in the sand won't do.

right-writes said...

The hardest facts for our government to understand seem to be that we gave them a job to do, that it seems to believe was not an explicit instruction, namely to leave the treaties that comprise the treaty organisation that has come to be known as the EU (Yerp), and that the reason for leaving them is that we don't want them.

Replacing them with a pisspoor copy was never on our agenda, for obvious reasons. We leavers, the politicians that were selling it, what became remainers and our government ALL rejected that, well before the vote took place.

I was a member of the Harrogate Agenda (team) arrangement, I was booked to go the hotel in Harrogate where it was posited by North and accepted without discussion by his acolytes, and it was around then that I formed my correct negative opinion of North and all who sail in her.

Anonymous said...

It has seemed to me that North has been engaged in one of the longest dummy-spits in history since failing to win the 2014 Brexit Prize, which he appeared to think he just had to turn up and collect.

G. Tingey said...

I sincerely hope she was lying.
Because brexit becomes more of an economic basket-case-car-crash by the minute.

The only hope is that the impossibility shows up in time for us to revoke At50

John Vasc said...

May's current plan is intended to fail, and make the EEA seem a sensible alternative, and she might even cite North's idea of using the EEA to leave completely. Forgetting that the EU ensures no country can do so without severe damage.

Taking Norway as an example:
After the 1972 referendum voted against joining the EEC, Norwegian governments negotiated with the EEC for trade agreements, until they were coerced into the EEA in January 1994 by their politicians, who lied to them about its intentions: they wanted to drag Norway into the EU (always an amenable prospect for national politicians.) Ten months later, Norwegians were offered a referendum, not on the EEA, but on full EU membership. Once again the Norwegians patiently rejected it. But the Norwegian politicians have never given up, and will be trying it on again soon, using EEA as an easy stepping stone.
The disadvantages of the EEA are subtle, and back in 1994 'free movement of people' was not the predatory, existential threat it has since become. But Norwegian politicians will never take Norway out of the EEA - they personally would lose too much comfort-zone. They cheerfully vote through every bit of EU legislation - 92% of it unanimously. And this is the level of input it has into EU legislation
http://www.efta.int/eea/decision-shaping
Hmmm. 'Exchange of views'. That's showing 'em.:-)

If the UK is forced to join the EEA, voters will never again be given a choice in the matter. No major party will ever campaign for Brexit, and no pro-Brexit party will ever be allowed to share let alone take power. The global forces outside Britain and the political forces inside it are too strongly aligned against it.

Admittedly, that would mean that democracy is doomed. But did we have we any illusions on that score, by now?

cascadian said...

Red-lines and politicians, what a bunch of nonsense! Redlines are as flexible as cooked spaghetti as proven by camoron and obambi in recent times. So who would be so foolish as to believe anything Ms Maybe says related to red-lines.

There will no doubt be much huffing and puffing and a great deal of superfluous "discussion" NOT about Brexit but how life can be made easier for your poor over-worked bureaucrats-surely it makes sense to maintain all the current agreements, the ECJ, free movement for all, in fact free everything for all that arrive on your shores, plus pay a kings ransom for the dubious benefit of being attached to a dying club based on a floundering currency -there is your discussion.

Ms Maybe is just the latest in a long line of politicians that do not possess even the minimal skills of a junior manager, the ability to hold meetings, take minutes, and follow up what has been agreed on an ongoing basis, managing several projects at any time. Any presumption that she could do that plus negotiate without first revealing all the weaknesses your position may hold is fallacious. camoron wasted several years maybe seems intent on adding another decade of failure to yUKs resume.

I await with pleasure the upcoming NATO meeting with President Trump where real negotiations are conducted, perhaps Ms maybe may yet learn by example.

Mr Ecks said...


Not nice to see you again Tingey. Not started on your eternity of oblivion yet?

Being a remainiac is the next best thing I expect.

jack ketch said...

Can't quite decide if "May has sold us out" (to put it in the BrexSShiteur) or if she knows damn well this won't fly for the EU and so we get a hard Brexit by default.

Budgie said...

Despite the claims of demi-Remains and EEA apologists, the fact is that the EEA agreement imposes the EU's internal market on all nations that sign up to it. EU rules equals EU control, adjudicated by the CJEU, with only minor input from the EFTA signatories and the EFTA Court. Where else do the rules come from if not the EU? And no, EEA rules are not merely international standards homologised by the EU.

Headline in the DT 6th July: "Cabinet agrees Brexit deal that keeps Britain tied to EU rules and regulations indefinitely". This is confirmation of the betrayal of Leave long hinted at, and long expected. The problem for Remains is this: independence is valuable in its own right (hence why the EEA is not Leave); and as for trade, most of the planet is not in the EU (or the EEA), and gets by perfectly well without either.

Budgie said...

Anon at 11:19 said: "EEA Art 112/113 allows suspension of free movement".

No, it doesn't. In any case "suspension" of free movement is not the same as halting, or controlling.

Have you actually read Articles 112 and 113 (EEAA)? In point of fact the Articles are silent on specific measures such as free movement. There is no right of control by the signatory: every move is hedged by qualifications such as "serious"; and any safeguard measures "shall be restricted with regard to their scope and duration to what is strictly necessary", and reviewed "with a view to their abolition".

DeeDee99 said...

@Dave_G

"This is no longer about Brexit - this is about saving the EU (or trying)."

I agree. The Globalists want the EU to survive and will willingly sacrifice what passes for democracy in the UK in order to achieve it.

Dioclese said...

At no point have I ever envisaged that we would get any deal.
They will let us crash out then pull all the stops out to screw us and claim it was all down to Brexit so more countries don't tell them where to stick their 1000 year reich.

These bastards have been our natural enemies for hundreds of years. They ain't gonna change now...

Did May lie to us? Of course she did. She's a politician.

Anonymous said...

"The Globalists want the EU to survive and will willingly sacrifice what passes for democracy in the UK in order to achieve it."

You can't expect rich and powerful people to be in favour of democracy. The surprising thing is that a few are.

Don Cox

Budgie said...

With a hefty flourish of theatre, Theresa May has brought us the "Kit-Kat" Brexit: hard Remain tack on the inside, smothered with a thin layer of soft gooey Leave platitudes on the outside to kid us it is palatable. After all, we were told that was what our civil servants were "negotiating" with their "colleagues" in Brussels a few months ago, so we shouldn't be surprised. We Leave voters have been comprehensively shafted.

jack ketch said...

"We Leave voters have been comprehensively shafted."

As I recall you saying many times past would happen. However not only have they shafted you but the entire nation-be they leave, remain or 'would yous quite the fuck over with brexit its boring'ers.

After JRM's somewhat strange reference to Davis' 'titanium backbone' I had a feeling that the supposed hardcore brexiteers: Bojo, Davis and the rest of their ilk would cave in.

Worst still I have feeling Barnier is about to shaft 500 million Europeans by agreeing to soften their redlines too.

Budgie said...

Please read the 12 point plan signed by Theresa May. I find it excruciatingly and embarrassingly amateurish. The language is GCSE level, and it looks like no lawyer has checked it over for the obvious blunders and contradictions.

Apart from anything else she cannot bring herself to say "We will be leaving . . .", instead the first point is "Leaving the EU on 29th March 2019" (??!). Then she cannot make her mind up whether she is talking about "Britain", the "UK", or "GB". Frankly if the UK and the EU were football teams we'd get the most monumental drubbing of our lives, and deserve it.

Budgie said...

Jack Ketch, How could Barnier possibly "shaft 500 million Europeans"? Apart from the fact that the rEU has a population of c450 million, and many EU inhabitants are not "European", we have been endlessly told by Remains such as yourself that the UK is not important to the EU. Therefore the population of the rEU can be supremely indifferent to whatever deal emerges, whether full FTA, May's bodge, or WTO: life won't change for the EU serfs.

jack ketch said...

Jack Ketch, How could Barnier possibly "shaft 500 million Europeans"? Apart from the fact that the rEU has a population of c450 million -Budgie

Uhm I was still, mentally, counting us as 'Europeans'. For the last 2 years Barnier has consistently maintained that the 4 Freedoms are absolute, non-negotiable and take primacy over any and all trade considerations (Ie even if Brexit were to bankrupt the EU). That 'out' means 'out' with all the consequences good and bad (Galileo etc).If he suddenly agree to soften the EU's Red Lines in response to May's fudge then that could ultimately lead to the break up of the EU- that's what I meant by shafting , shafting both UK and them. Brexit would instantly turn from being a 'minor annoyance' (to quote one EU official this week) to being a PROBLEM.
It is ironic that both BrexSShiteurs and Remainers are praying that Barnier was just being his usual polite self and waiting for the White Paper to be published at least before saying 'Non'...because that is pretty much the only way you'll get the sort of Brexit you want now. Barnier says 'Non, Non, NON!' and the Tories defenestrate May by her kitten heels and then elect a leader who will lead.

Cuffleyburgers said...

My preference was for a norway type transition in order to prepare for a full exit as and when.

As i have posted here many a time and oft.

However, as our italian friends might say, mi sono rotto i coglioni, vaffanculo. Bring a total fucking hard exit . At the end of the day the euros will suffer more than us. may has totally betrayed what little trust we gave her.

The so called cabinet brexiteers need to be boiled down to make glue.

Bring it on.

John Vasc said...

I don't think the sort of glue Gove and the other Cabinet fainthearts would make would be any good at sticking to anything...