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Tuesday, 29 January 2019

Robbing democratic rights

There is a circular letter going the rounds which I reproduce below:
SIR – A “Citizens’ Assembly” can break the current impasse on Brexit, and recreate trust in representative democracy.
On Brexit, public debates too often reflect two unreconciled blocs of opinion. We urgently need a more diverse range of views to be weighed, taken seriously, and debated to a conclusion. A Citizens’ Assembly does that. Experience shows it works in reaching conclusions which carry public confidence, and in reconciling division.
Many feel a disconnection between Parliament and the public. The answer is not to weaponise the idea of “the people” against their elected representatives. It is to involve the electorate in a debate which influences and shapes a final parliamentary decision, without removing the decision from it.
It is not too late. The process could be completed in three months. There would need to be an extension of the Article 50 notice.
Lasting cynicism about national politics will be a likely outcome of 
how Brexit was done. It is in our 
hands to avoid that. Referring Brexit 
to a Citizens’ Assembly would reconnect with the public and revitalise the parliamentary process. We urge our political leaders to make this happen now.
Yes. We mentioned this sort of thing in our series of pieces on renewing democracy over Christmas:
Deliberative Democracy
This is the favourite of the Remain side, who think that voters in their natural state are not fit to make important decisions. The schemes on offer vary, but all involve some sort of 'sortition' - the use of a voters' panel, a bit like Blair's focus groups, to make decisions on behalf of the rest of us. But only of course after being lectured by experts on the right choice to make. The experts would be neutral in the same way that the BBC is neutral.

To me, this all sounds too much like the pointless design Charettes I have encountered. The architect generally conducts them to convince planners / clients that his or her ideas have community support. They involve the architect talking to a room of people for a very long time with tons of slides and display boards and then asking them at the end which shade of Farringdon Grey, of the three offered, they would like as a finish to the front door?
The fact that the signatories that one knows - Rowan Williams, Dan Snow, Matthew Taylor - are all prominent Remainers tells you all you need to know. The real purpose of their 'Citizens Assembly' is to reverse the most significant vote in British history - 17.4m citizens under universal suffrage voting to Leave the EU in a secret ballot. And with the usual unashamed mendacity of the Remain side they have the front to claim that a panel of 250 people selected by them to determine the nation's future (with suitable 'expert' advice, of course) will 'recreate trust in representative democracy'.

It's a bit like asking some street spiv doing the three cup trick 'Is it fair?' and believing the answer 'Course it's fair guv'.

They really are desperate if they're bringing forward their longer term plans to undermine the fundamental defences of our democracy - universal suffrage, the secret ballot, the right to associate - so rapidly, before the BBC and the MSM have laid a thick mat of propaganda.


DeeDee99 said...

It's just another con-trick, to deny the DEMOS what they voted for. The Referendum could not have been clearer: LEAVE the EU and TAKE BACK CONTROL.

If, despite all their propaganda and machinations, the carefully selected, diverse "people's assembly" decided that in fact the best thing for the country is to leave the EU on WTO Rules, it would immediately be denounced - and ignored - by the Remainers in Parliament who are currently proposing it.

Stephen J said...

Arguably all those people that can call on some body or other to represent their interests, from the CBI, the BMJ, the ERG, the NGO's or Whatever, are the ones that should be ignored when it comes to a referendum... They are the ones that under normal circumstances have their big mouths at the table... Under normal circumstances, we ordinary folk are ignored.

So I rather see it the other way, it isn't too late, we can follow the clear instructions left to the government by the people, who for JUST ONCE were asked their opinion.

Anonymous said...

But the simple facts are that the BBC granted Nigel Farage far more time than any other politician pre-referendum, and continues to give far more to the Government and to the ERG than it does to the Opposition and to eminent Remain backers.

As if, given the stance of the Telegraph, Express, Sun, Times, and the DM under Dacre, they needed any extra help?

mikebravo said...

You do have to wonder what these people are thinking.
Do they actually believe in this twaddle?
Do they think that they are so clever and everybody else terminally thick?
Are they trying to be underhand and subversive?

I wish someone would ask them and keep at them with follow up questions. Unlikely with AlBeeb and the rest of lhe legacy meeja!

Anonymous said...

As part of the Good Friday Agreement, the British parliament repealed the Government of Ireland Act 1920 (which had established Northern Ireland, partitioned Ireland and asserted a territorial claim over all of Ireland). It means the de-partioning of Ireland, therefore.

That is why hard EU exit is impossible, without wrecking any standing that the UK might have among nations, as one which honours its commitments.

That peace was brokered with the assiduous help of the US and the EU.

The latter at any rate are not going to watch it thrown aside without the slightest care by English nationalist cynics and by Disaster Capitalists.

Charles said...

Dear Anonymous

I have to return to Astro physics and relativity to make sense of your post. The BBC does not and did not give Farage or the Brexit case anything like a fair hearing and still does not. You only had to see the BBC documentary on Brexit last night to understand that. It was presented as a cynical move to heal splits in the Conservative Party. That much I believe is true, but there are not 17.4 million card carrying Tories. No one in the media has done a one hour documentary spelling out why more than 50% of the country voted leave. We have had patronising people giving their view, but not that of the people themselves. It was quite telling that yesterday’s documentary included the obligatory leavers who now said that they would vote remain.

Today the front pages warn of a fresh food crisis and fast food supplies being in danger. The one thing remain has not run out of is hot air.

Charles said...

As for anonymous on Northern Ireland the idea that the EU did anything other than take credit that it was not due is risible. We leave the EU, Eire goes bankrupt unless they have a deal with us. I do not see any international organisation that worries about this outcome.

Raedwald said...

Anon -

Success has many fathers. Failure is an orphan.

I'm just waiting for the EU to claim to have invented the internet, to have put a man on the Moon and to have healed the Ozone layer.

Anonymous said...

Yes, having a referendum on EU membership makes a kind of sense.

Having a show of hands among a mob of drunken football fans on a 787, for who should fly it, when they crash the flight deck does too.

It's only fair that the rest of the passengers should try to get the fool out before it's too late.

Anonymous said...

A different Anon. opinion:

I have long felt that it would be a good idea to have a national jury, selected the same way as a court jury. Members of this jury would enjoy a sabbatical year with arrangements to legally protect job and income. Perhaps a quarter of the jury might be replaced every three months. The jury would have a permanent secretariat to help them out. The jury would operate rather like a select committee, with the difference that they would be able to strike down legislation but not able to propose new legislation. This I think would be a good way for 'the people' to have some control over diverse issues that get buried in the packages that are the manifestos of the parties that form governments.

Brexit, however, is a single issue, it isn't 'party-political', the issue has been resolved, we want to leave the EU. All we need now is parliament to get on with it. As others have written, all the variations on Brexit, 'second' referendums, general elections and people's assemblies are just devices of a 'remainer' parliament trying to avoid doing what they asked us to tell them to do. Indeed it is crazy, normally politicians and civil servants will do anything to avoid rsponsibility and now, here, they have a clear instruction, we decided, we take responsibility, what could be better?

Stephen J said...

So let me get this right "Anonymouse"....

The EU is the very zenith of human civilisation?

There is no higher that we can soar as a civilisation...


Just so that I know.

I should have realised, it is so f***ing obvious that a show of hands should do...

Make sure that they are the right hands though.

Billy Marlene said...

Sadly, this site is becoming unreadable with the daily troll line cast; yielding an unfortunate and unhealthy bite count.

DiscoveredJoys said...

@Gardner Fisher

"Today the front pages warn of a fresh food crisis and fast food supplies being in danger. "

Quite. They never mention where all the fresh food is when it is not on the shelves. Peppers, tomatoes and salad piled high in rotting heaps in the Netherlands. Italy awash with Prosecco and France awash with Champagne and strange smelly cheeses. And a beef mountain in ROI.

Potential suppliers are not going to be best pleased either at our empty shelves.

Anonymous said...

No, Mainland food suppliers to the UK, along with UK customers are going to be unhappy.

It's just yet another reason why EU exit of any form is self-evidently cretinous.

However, they have twenty-seven other countries as immediate markets with no transportation restrictions.

Mark said...

Anon, if what you say is true and large quantities of food are dumped within the EU starting 30th March, won't prices drop sharply which all theses suppliers are going to love. Who will be undercutting who and who will go bitching to who about unfair competition. Who will reconcile it.

Anonymous said...

So the more trouble, grief and turmoil the better then Mark?

After WWII, unsurprisingly, there was general agreement, that no politician should ever appeal to the primitive, dark-hearted beast, which lurks inside every one of us. The reprehensible low-life, who now crave power at any price, have rediscovered this trick, however, and they just cannot believe their luck. We have seen to where this leads throughout history, and it seems that the baying mob of today are just going to have to learn the hard way, all over again.

Their thralls take revenge, persecution and oppression, dress them up in a few fancy terms, and call that "justice" - using the logic of the Ducking Stool - to determine those upon whom they think these should be visited.

Yes, the world has seen that many times before.

Mark said...

Anon, I simply made a point about how real world markets work. A point you refuse to acknowledge because you simply have no answer.

Behind the scenes, away from the political circus, discussions have been and are being held between those who live in the real world to ensure disruption is kept to a minimum.

Stop projecting! You're the one frothing at the gusset at the thought of anarchy, not us.

I did make the comment on an earlier thread that you weren't even trolling anymore and your ever more fantastic comments demonstrate this graphically.

Actually, keep going. Somebody is going to get a psychology P.hD out of your rantings some day I'm sure.

wg said...

@Anonymous, 29 January 2019 at 10:06

There is also a dark heart to the EU; a construct that has been working towards
an end without consulting its people.
There is logically no difference between national or EU nationalism; both seek power
for themselves.

I would rather have some kind of direct control over our political class - and I don't
buy into the idea that the EU is democratic; when did I ever vote for an EU, or an EU
parliament, or any of the treaties?

I have certainly never given the EU permission to have my rights in their hands - we
have seen how EU rights work in Greece.

Anonymous said...

"Utterly useless, pathetic UK would only have been another Greece and not another Germany in EU", whimpers wg.

So, Greece's problems are down to the EU's bailing them out, and nothing to do with their spending vastly more than they raised in taxes under their quaint version of socialism, then?

Raedwald said...

Billy - the troll is doing a first rate job in amplifying, reinforcing and validating the intense dislike of the EU amongst most blog readers. In fact, they could not be doing a better job if Nigel had hired them himself.

Span Ows said...

Anon 09:15"However, they have twenty-seven other countries as immediate markets with no transportation restrictions."

Where they already sell. You seem to think they immediately take up all the slack previously bought by 'Treasure island'.

Anon 10:06"Yes, the world has seen that many times before."

Indeed, and seeing it now in the ever-increasing shrieky panicked Remainers.

Mark said...

Anon, I thought, according to you Greece is something we can only aspire to!

Anonymous said...

I don't think that a Citizen's Convention on the EU is such a wonderful idea either.

The UK should get on with leaving, but one or two politicians need to show some leadership, instead of grovelling to the mob.

There are consequences to stupidity, and to gratuitous offensiveness, and a lot of people here need to learn that.

Let this self-disgraced country now take its place among the lower-ranking ones, as they clearly wish.

Mark said...

Anon. There ain't a lot we can teach you about gratuitous offensiveness.

andy said...

Anonymous 08:57 what you're suggesting is a bit like the ancient Roman post of The Tribunes of the plebs,2 magistrates elected directly by the Roman people outside of, and independent of the Senate with the power to strike down any proposed law they felt was unjust,they could also propose and get new laws enacted regardless of what the Senate thought if they could get the agreement of the Roman people.
Smart people the Romans.

Stephen J said...


Anonymous reveals his true identity.

Dr Evil said...

Every time some hare-brained idea is touted as a People's this and People's that it's always a bunch of 2016 referendum Losers trying to thwart the will of the majority who voted leave. Always. At least there are some MPs in parliament admitting that's what they want to do. By their actions we will know them.

Anonymous said...

Well, Sterling has gained about 5% against the euro over the last few days.

The markets clearly think that Parliament is going to constrain the Government from the ERG's madness.

Let's hope that they are not being over-optimistic.

More good news is, bitcoin and other crypto resume their death spiral.

Stephen J said...

Surprised that our anonymous corporatist nutjob doesn't like crypto...

Oh no hang on, silly me, it only likes globalism if it has a nazi heart.

Anonymous said...

Correct. I don't like the likes of Mercer's millions crossing borders undetected, and being used to subvert democracies by financing everything from paramilitaries to referendum rigging.

It's no coincidence that Andy Wigmore, Banks' steam-room mate is heavily involved in that and in the dark web IMO.

Dave_G said...

Never heard of Soros then Anon? - he seems to be the kind of person you'd fawn over. His influence in manipulating people and economies is well known and a list of his 'friends' in the EU Parliament has to be an embarrassment to any that appear on it. Embarrassing but not surprising.

The EU is dead/dieing. If you can't see the signs then you need to seriously address your view of the world. Standing clear of a system that could drag you to destruction would be the wiser thing to do. I suspect the (independent) UK will end up being the saviour of Europe - again - even if it's as an example of how successful a free and self-determining country can be.

I can neither trust the EU (their motives seem constantly to be towards totalitarianism and communist in nature) nor believe that their version of economics is even as 'good' (read 'bad') as the usual globalist bankster version. Both systems of economics seem designed to collapse, the Euro quicker than most.

As for their social structure and population management the signs that they are clearly wrong are so visible only a moron would agree with their motives and actions.

Like the Roman empire, the EU has tried to expand and, at the same time, devalue its currency way beyond any measure of capability to sustain and the end result will be the same.

Put politics aside and even an idiot wouldn't want to join the EU given its current future path. As ever the PEOPLE who are MADE to join rarely get their voices heard as the self- and vested- interests manipulate the system to ensure compliance on their behalf - because "they know best".

Anonymous said...

Thanks Dave.


Sgt 73rd Regt said...

Dear Anonymous,

I find your postings hugely entertaining, it is quite apparent that you are very frightened of the UK losing it's status as a vassal state of the EU. It's been a long time since the UK has been a totally sovereign country running it's own affairs, but it can be done.

How on earth can a country survive without the EU?, how has my country (Australia) not only survived but prospered? It's by getting out and making free trade agreements with other countries, not by tying ourselves into a restrictive cartel like the EU.

Anonymous said...

The hostility and cynicism shown towards the EU by the Right in England is nothing new.

In the 1960s and early 70s the sick-man-of-Europe UK pestered the then EC for admission, which was finally granted.

However, it has since shown, that it was no more than the would-be partygoer, who pleads for an invite, but who then repays that generosity by becoming drunk and abusive, and vomiting over his host's furniture and carpets, in the hope that it will make all present feel that it was a bad idea to have the gathering in the first place.

Well, let it slink back to its shabby prefab, where it can gaze bitterly at the neighbours, in their architect-designed six-bedroom new build, and dream of seeing it in flames.

The other nations have been too polite for too long, and their restraint of late has bee nothing short of exceptional.

Mark said...

So anon, and not a facetious question.

What will you be doing after 29th March?

Mark said...

Sgt, I think the pertinent question is how can a country survive with it?

Sgt 73rd Regt said...


Yes! You have my deepest sympathy, I am amazed that there has not been more protests over the betrayal of the Brexit vote, I mean I know that there are a lot of slimey politicians but this lot really are pathetic.

Raedwald said...

It's a fantasy to pretend that dislike of the EU is confined to the Right, anon - our left wing working class has always also loathed it

Mark said...


There simply are no words to describe this shower of shite, but if we do get a proper Brexit - which is looking more likely- it will basically be their doing!