Moore suggests that a deal with the SNP may be the way to get a Commons majority for a simple Bill to over-ride the FTPA (and vote down any Remainer wrecking amendments). He doesn't say what would induce them to agree to such a deal - but we can all guess that the price would be Boris agreeing (if he wins the election) to a second independence Referendum. Polls also suggest that the SNP seats could increase to 50 - at the cost of Conservative and Labour seats there - surely also an attractive inducement.
My own feeling is, why not? Scotland's status as part of the United Kingdom is a matter for the people of Scotland. Personally, I think the demand for independence is less than people think. I suspect many Scots are quite alive to Sturgeon's calamitous period of governance though they like the idea of self-government. They will be aware of the massive failings of self-government now coming to light - most being due to the SNP's eyes being bigger than their tummy, as nanny used to say. And if there is a suspicion of an independent Scotland repeating the disaster of the Darien Scheme, by say creating a crypto-currency or gambling Scottish tax revenue on the craps tables at Vegas, Scots may well decide to keep ahold of nurse for fear of finding something worse.
Wargaming the options looks like being one of those games of 3D chess. And everything depends on what the EU Council decides next week.
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| Would Scotland want to hand her fishing waters over to the EU? |
20 comments:
As a Scot who has lived here for over 64 years, I'm certain the demand for independence is less than people think, (or are being told!)and it's decreasing every day that passes
Not a Scot but know several (north and south of the border) and NONE want SR2...that said, could be the company I keep :-)
Also, whenever I read a forum/coments section on Scottish matters the pros/antis seem split towards no SR2 too.
The UK-S parliament would look very differnet with no SNP.
An opportunity to lance several large boils here: The rogue parliament, the Sturgeon / Scottish Independence issue (let them explain to their electorate how they'd rejoin the EU, and cope with a hard border with England at the other side of it, and what currency they'd use) and maybe we can find a way to give away those unlovely blackmailers, the DUP while we're at it. Let that nice Mr Varadkar have them.
The days when Scots ran the world are long gone, killed by Socialism and the reduction of all things to the lowest common denominator. Has England slipped too far, as well?
What better way to demonstrate that people should have a say in the location and make up of their government than by telling the Scots they can have IR2 if they agree to a GE before christmas. Same for Northern Ireland if they so wish.
We (English) voted to leave the EU, if our neighbours would rather be governed by Brussels than London, that is their decision.
As is said above, let's let the SNP exaplin their exit strategy from England and their rejoin strategy for EU and how they would resolve the birder issues with England. I don't think IR2 has a chance of voting to leave, but frankly I don't really care either way. If their independece means not having to listen to Cranky whining on and Blackfoot's tedious drivel, I'd heartily campaign in favour!
There was some merit to the Yes people last time because it seemed oil prices would continue to go one way.
That's gone, as is Salmond, easily the most persuasive politician at that time.
The No lot had in their talking head (forgot his name), someone with a real passion to remain, even if he was a Labour MP.
Much will depend on who takes their place. A Tory is the kiss of death and Sturgeon just doesn't have the sheer presence of her predecessor.
There are still a whole mountain of issues that need clarification. What currency will we have? How can we finance a credible military defence? Pensions? What will be our share of the national debt? Our NHS? Diplomatic Embassies?
I could go on and on and... on, but these issues won't go away and we know perfectly well that England will play dirty.
My buddy - an SNP supporter and Yes to his toenails simply wants Scottish independence AND non alignment. His attitude is to get out of the union, then get shot of the SNP. His belief is there will be stacks of Scottish political parties and with PR only (the plan), he'll vote for one that does not want to join the EU.
The business community has never supported separation, I don't, in part because I dread to think of someone like Sturgeon controlling anything remotely military. And, more seriously, this business of discrimination against the English who live in Scotland.
But previous contributors say it like it is, there's nowhere near the support they'd like us to believe. The wounds of the last referendum are still red raw - and I'm sick to the teeth of twat's hanging posters on motorway bridges and shutting down city centres to have their protests (organised by the SNP).
Agree with IPP @ 09:30, if Scotland and Northern Ireland want to go their own way then good bye and good riddance, and let them have a no deal clean break leaving, things will be a damn sight simpler without them.
Whatever, the UK isn't leaving on 31/10/19, we read.
Why isn't the American, Alexander Johnson dead in that ditch?
A hundred million he "spaffed up a wall" telling us that we would too, as against the sixty million he lamented spent on investigating child murders etc.
Resident in Scotland for 10 years+ now (Scottish wife, in-laws, friends etc) and the % for Independence across the range is around 10%.
IR2 (indeed IR1) wouldn't even raise its head if there was decent opposition to SNP rule. Most of the reasons for IR2 stem from incompetence of the SNP in running Scotland 'properly' (as if ANY party could, but none could do worse) and the SNP bang on about IR2 simply to hide their pathetic performance to date.
I'd like IR2 simply to see Sturgeon et al squirm under questioning of the practicalities - what type of 'deal' she'd do with her major trading partner (England), border issues, legal and protest challenges identical to those pushed by Remain etc.
Sturgeon is a minnow (politically) compared to Salmond and I reckon there's something fishy about the whole thing.
If the Scots actually wants to leave I would sadly let them. If they want to stay I would welcome that. If they want to stay they are valuable, if they want to leave they are a liability.
As to the politics, it is rumoured that the Nats would prefer an election before Ecks's court case. So offer them a referendum after it on condition of a GE before it. Indeed it would be difficult to organise a referendum before the case.
Remember, a second remain win would kill the issue.
Rebuild Hadrian’s wall; re-dig Offa’s dyke; blow up the Tamar bridge and let the Celts get on with if that is what they want. And return Ulster to its historic status as a Scots colony, with the Scots paying for it,
As an English leaver who wants freedom from the EU I have no objection to independence referendums for Scotland, N.I. and Wales.
As I have said before, our PM should do a deal with the SNP to allow a second Scottish referendum in return for their assistance in our achieving our freedom.
However, I believe we should consider the views of Scots who live outside of Scotland and make it a condition that Scots who have lived less than 15 years outside of Scotland are allowed to vote, just as is the case for UK ex pats in the UK EU referendum.
Quite clearly, Sturgeon is using the faux Brexit vote result (for Scotland) as her leverage for IR2 but must know (unless she's abominably stupid) that she's facing either an uphill battle to get it through or some deliberate deception/manipulation of the result to achieve the same aim.
I can guarantee that should she be given permission for IR2 she'll say "not now, when the time is right, the time of OUR choosing" etc as her bluff will be called.
It would take the wind out of her sails, expose her anti-Brexit hypocrisy and destroy her remaining credibility in Scotland if she prevaricated after being given permission to proceed so, as far as many in Scotland are concerned, GIVE HER the damned permission if only to shut her the eff up.
JPM said "Why isn't the American, Alexander Johnson dead in that ditch?"
BJ says "after you JPM...."
All these debates seem to revolve around who has power. If more power and autonomy was devolved to individuals and less to bossy governments this issue would be less likely to arise in my opinion.
The answer to the question “Would Scotland want to hand her fishing waters over to the EU?” is “yes”.
It’s not independence that the SNP want but separation from England.
During the last independence referendum, the SNP were not worried that by leaving the UK they would also be leaving the EU and that re-joining the EU might be a problem.
Now the SNP say that because England wants to leave the EU they want “independence” so they can remain in the EU.
They voted remain because it is an EU policy to divide up the EU into regions and Scotland would become a region separate to England.
The right-wing opportunists whom you support and excuse have overreached themselves, and that is your problem.
Under cover of a hollow and groundless claim to be honouring the fictitious "will of the people" over a single issue, you are trying to smuggle in a whole raft of reactionary, authoritarian measures, and also secure a full term for this excuse for a government.
Brenda has you sussed.
When people refer to members of the public that have legitimate cause/reason to object to .gov/EU manipulation in terms of being 'right wing' it only goes to expose the tendencies of the person that make the claim.
We can therefore assume that JPM is a communist/marxist.
The only reason Scotland exists as a distinct entity is because of Roman interference in the internal affairs of the British isles.
The Border, is an artificial creation of the Romans, and the segregation into two countries the result.
To the modern day, England couldn't afford (or tolerate ) an independent Scottish state on her Northern Border. That was the reason the Act of Union was attractive to the English, it cost them an arm and a leg, and looking at the number of Scots that have had control of the United Kingdom since then demonstrates that Scotland did extremely well out of the deal, and England, got a stable northern territory in exchange.
After the experience of the Ukraine, anyone who thinks the EU wouldn't try the same thing in Scotland, hasn't thought about the topic at anything other than an utterly superficial level.
Both Scotland and N.I. voted to remain in the EU, so as an English leaver I would rather have an English independence referendum than be forced to remain in the EU as a colony.
I see no problem for rUK, or for Scotland or N.I. separately to be “independent” countries within the EU or for N.I. to be joined with Ireland.
Both Scotland and N.I. have sufficient population size to be not be the smallest countries in the EU.
Since Wales voted to leave the EU, they may wish to join with England, but again a referendum could decide whether they would like this or be a separate nation or be part of rUK.
This would be the only solution for England (and Wales?) if our existing undemocratic and unrepresentative Parliament voted for the UK to “leave” the EU with the treaty which contained a backstop from which there was no lawful exit without the EU’s permission.
John Brown: "Both Scotland and N.I. voted to remain in the EU, "
Incorrect. There was no question on the ballot specifically for Scotland or Northern Ireland. It was a UK question and the UK as a whole voted to leave.
Prior to the EU referendum vote, the Scots had had a vote of their own, where they rejected leaving the United Kingdom. Implicit in that result, is that they would adhere to UK wide decisions, one being, the subsequent decision to leave the EU.
John Brown: "I see no problem for rUK, or for Scotland or N.I. separately to be “independent” countries within the EU"
Because Scotland would be neither independent, nor "independent" within the EU. You obliviously know that, since you used quotes.
John Brown: "Both Scotland and N.I. have sufficient population size to be not be the smallest countries in the EU."
Belgium - 11.4 million
Greece - 10.4 Million
Denmark - 5.6 Million
Finland - 5.5 Million
Scotland - 5.4 Million
Northern Ireland - 2 million.
Luxembourg - barely counts as a country.
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